Comments on: Marc Reeves, The Birmingham Post and Five fine questions on blogging.

By: Podnosh Blog » Archive » Compact, concise, connected - why Birmingham (Post) must change.

Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:11:06 +0000

[…] They will be found in the new relationships being forged online (and in the real world) that will see reporters change from people with contacts into people with real relationships. It is something that Marc and Jo Geary (and others at the paper) have been experiencing for many months. […]

By: Paul Groves

Paul Groves — Tue, 20 May 2008 09:00:56 +0000

I’ve just spent 24 hours deciding whether to leave a comment on James Treadwell’s latest Post blog.
I really wanted to read it, but couldn’t get beyond the headline.
Scandle?
What’s a scandle?
This is a perfect example of one of the major issues that newspapers have regarding blogs and blogging, as far as I’m concerned. A really interesting post and a new twist on a widely reported and commented on issue. But I’m sidetracked by a sloppy mistake in the headline.
We all make mistakes, but leaving “scandle” up unchanged for 24 hours is…well…a scandal.
After biting my tongue all day yesterday, especially given some suggestions last time I criticised a Post blog that if I don’t like it I should stop reading it, I’ve decided to be a pedant this morning.
No doubt plenty of mistakes are littered around my own blog, but that’s my problem. I do expect more from a newspaper and believe that such mistakes damage the title’s credibility.
My biggest concern is that it could well create a “I told you so” attitude amongst some of the more cynical journalists who can’t see the point of blogging, or regard it as some sort of slight against their high professional standards.

By: Peter Bacon

Peter Bacon — Tue, 20 May 2008 08:18:46 +0000

Perhaps I didn’t express myself very well. Although I mentioned fine-hewn sentences, fine-hewn sentences are the result of fine-hewn thought. So what I was really talking about was quality, wisdom, originality of thought… and those are vital whether it is the more formal act of journalism, the even more formal published essay, or the much less formal, conversational blog which is the medium.
And perhaps the distinction that exists between the journos-turned-bloggers and the to-the-blogger-born masters of digital society is that the former have a (dodgy) tendency to think they are very important people sharing their bon mots with the unwashed, while the latter know we are all unwashed.
What Nick rightly (and always so) stresses is that the back-and-forth nature of the blog, that the writer and the reader are equals here, and everyone can be both.
And to go back to the the beginning, the challenge for the journo-turned-blogger has been rightly pinpointed by Nick. A good blog has questions in it – the newspaper columnist is more comfortable offering opinionated answers.

By: Nick Booth

Nick Booth — Mon, 19 May 2008 21:03:00 +0000

How wonderful – a Birmingham Post reunion and all of them now bloggers! Perhaps blogs have one common use – a simple way for those who like to express themselves to do so.

It is interesting tho’ that whilst journlists will often write about quality of writing – pure bred bloggers rarely do.

By: Peter Bacon

Peter Bacon — Mon, 19 May 2008 20:59:16 +0000

Two observations:
1) I don’t think good journalists necessarily make good bloggers but it’s a lot more likely if those journalists are columnists rather than straight reporters – it’s opinions that are the meat in the pie for both columns and blogs, rather than the facts which are crucial to a strong news story.
2) There is a fascinating relationship, whether in newspaper columns or in blogs, between giving offence or being controversial, and being (how can I put this politely?) not very good (ie not very well argued, not particularly well thought through, etc). A bit like Goverment Budget announcements, really.
I am sure some of the other contributors to this discussion can think back and recall writings that most often stirred the greatest response were not necessarily the ones they were most proud of.
I do have the feeling Roshan Doug knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote the one about the bank clerk, though. Was this just trying to stir things up in a very conscious way?
And what of the columnist/blogger who causes the most outrage from a position of innocence. Rivers of Blood and one Nigel Hastilow come to mind. Or are Hastilow and innocence ridiculous words to use in the same sentence?
Come on, give us some examples from your back catalogues… When did you say something really badly and get a lot of attention for it? And when did you turn a finely hewn few paras and find no reaction at all?

By: Nick Booth

Nick Booth — Mon, 19 May 2008 19:01:32 +0000

Hi Sid,

It’s a good 5 years since you were open minded enough to accept 6 features for the Birmingham Post on active citizens – stories also told on the Grassroots Channel. thanks for that.

I wonder if publishers have the time to fight demarcation battles? As newsrooms squabble with bosses will their audiences flee to new online publishers? I know there is still a large number of paper only readers – but I expect the speed at which that changes will surprise us all.

Now the print unions – how are they doing. Healthy membership?

By: Sid Langley

Sid Langley — Mon, 19 May 2008 18:35:23 +0000

Most journalists over the age of, say 30, are not open-minded enough to make good bloggers. They are not, in my experience – and I have a considerable amount of it – interested in anything beyond what will make good copy, bright headlines and an impressive piece in a cuttings book to secure them their next job. And in that sense my former colleague Paul Groves is right, they hunt in packs and seek approbation from their peer group, rather than satisfying what we might call their client group – readers. It’s as though GPs were in business to impress their fellow doctors rather than look after the health of patients.

By: Newspapers and blogging…a bit more « Groves Media

Newspapers and blogging…a bit more « Groves Media — Tue, 13 May 2008 14:20:59 +0000

[…] Finally, Nick Booth has some thought-provoking things to say on the subject of newspapers and blogging. The documentary maker turned social media teacher and consultant is reacting to the Post editor’s five questions. […]

By: Paul Groves

Paul Groves — Thu, 08 May 2008 08:41:23 +0000

Nick: Hhhhmmm…I’m thinking of the way journalists work I guess. There probably is a fair bit of overlap with blogging but I’ve always felt the atmosphere in a typical newsroom (no matter what size it is) is very different to any other “office” environment. It shapes the way journalists think and work, there is a pack mentality and yet journalists prefer to be regarded as individuals. There is still also this belief amongst some journalists that they should be dictating to readers, not listening to what they have to say.
Something like angryjournalist.com highlights them best – that’s if you can stand reading two or more of the sort of complaints you’ll hear anyway if two or more journalists are gathered together.

By: Nick Booth

Nick Booth — Thu, 08 May 2008 07:57:05 +0000

Hi Paul,

Undoubtedly a lot of learning and invention to come. I’m not sure though tha professional journalists have idiosyncracies that remain unique to their profession or necessarily at odds with blogging. What sort of things did you have in mind?

By: Paul Groves

Paul Groves — Thu, 08 May 2008 07:46:41 +0000

Nick: It is a learning curve for all newspapers and journalists. Newspapers and journalists can learn a lot from blogs and bloggers, which could eventually go a long way to securing a healthier future and a larger readership base.
But, equally, newspapers are curious oddities and journalists are strange animals. I think some of these idiosyncracies are completely alien to blogging and bloggers, but they need to be preserved as they make for good journalists and good newspapers.
So finding the common ground between the two is key and it is something I don’t believe any newspaper, including those with a strong web presence, have quite got right yet.
I’m excited about the Post’s future, a lot more so than when I worked there. But the learning curve is steep and I think Marc’s latest post gets to the heart of the original issue I felt sufficiently moved to rant about.

By: Nick Booth

Nick Booth — Wed, 07 May 2008 20:20:51 +0000

It’s a learning process. When what you write is personal not every comment is welcome. When it is a paid for commodity then all comments should be welcome.

By: Jon Bounds

Jon Bounds — Wed, 07 May 2008 20:18:00 +0000

A distinction all the same Marc, I suppose what I meant was that an experienced journalist/columnist was shocked by the response to his blog post. More experienced bloggers (journalists or not) could probably have seen it coming (not that that makes it right, or him wrong).

By: Marc

Marc — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:48:40 +0000

Just for clarification, Roshan is not a member of staff, but a freelance columnist who works regularly for us. a fine distinction I know ….

By: Nick Booth

Nick Booth — Wed, 07 May 2008 18:09:39 +0000

Thanks for the correction Jon – and for the comment Marc. can I please come and work for the University of Transparency.

By: Jon Bounds

Jon Bounds — Wed, 07 May 2008 18:04:15 +0000

>one of his guest bloggers

According to Roshan (in the comments to his original post):
“I’m just doing a job the Post management assigned me to do. But this is not a personal blog but a Post blog…If that helps.”

– odd that it’s one of the staff that caused the controversy rather than the guest bloggers?

(didn’t want to raise it there as it would have distracted from what I hope will be a fascinating debate)

By: Marc

Marc — Wed, 07 May 2008 18:02:26 +0000

Nick . . your links are welcome, but more so your comments. ‘The University of Transparency’….? Hmmmm…..